The Dark One, Travelling and The Bore.

[SheaththeSword]

Compulsion has not and CANNOT be classified by Aes Sedai living today as it has fallen completely out of use among channelers from the present day

That's not true. In fact, Compulsion is one of the most common weaves for sparkers to learn, alongside some for of eavesdropping. The Tower roots out these weaves, and forces them to forget them. Verin has a cobbled together version. BA use it - Liandrin has a version. AS can and do have a classification for what constitutes Compulsion. But what Semi did doesn't match it.

So your saying the small, intuitive weaves if you will, are still named as the same as a fuller version of it? Such as the example Verin gives for girls making fathers buy them dresses (or similar), or Nynaeve's "miracle's", are still named by living Aes Sedai as Compulsion and Healing?

They root them out, certainly, but for the reason that these weaves contain elements of the banned Compulsion, not that they are the one and the same in name and/or effect. So perhaps Verin MIGHT recognise a true AOL compulsion weave, but other AS can't possibly know what to look for. They would hear of the effects on, say, the girls' fathers, and stop them channeling that or anything during novice years unsupervised. They would not recognise a Comp. weave

[Mr Ares]

So your saying the small, intuitive weaves if you will, are still named as the same as a fuller version of it?

They are Compulsion, so yes.

[SheaththeSword]

We can argue new points for eternity. My point is just that  AS (except one) don't recognise the weaving of compulsion. It's effects, sure, but they'v suppressed anything like it so long they don't actually know much/enough about it anymore to classify it.

From that, i argue they have no classification.
And i beg to get back to topic XD

[Blackhoof]

Fine. On topic it is then.

I do not think that the drilling was caused with Blossoms of Fire or a modification; that is a war weave, pure and simple, and I dont believe that everything not in the pattern is the DOs' prison. Mierin sensed the DO while looking for an alternate power source, and presumably linked with a bunch of people to drill the bore, but we dont know how she did it. Perhaps she spent ages researching how to do it 'safely' with a new weave, and perhaps she used the travelling weave as a base. We'll probably never know. How she survived the Sharoms explosion, we dont know either. Maybe she and the other researchers were sucked into the DOs prison... but maybe not. It was never said.

[SheaththeSword]

I believe you are correct. Blossom of Fire can only (as far as we are told) destroy threads that are in the Pattern (Hmm, what other firey weave does that sound like.... ), not give access to spaces/realities outside of the pattern.

I seem to remember reading once that there were small patterns, and then larger ones encompassing the whole world, and then (and i may have the next two in the wrong order) the 'Age Lace', and finally a grander pattern still covering all possible worlds (inc. Wolrd of dreams and worlds through Portal stones, through the AS testing mechanisms, and through the 2 'doorframe' an'greal (sp) to 'Finnland', etc, etc). Please correct the above if incorrect...

As it seems Traveling (and not Skimming) seems to only give access from one point on the 'world pattern' in the present to another, and ter'angreal or special, non-OP techniques (Aiel dreamers, wolf brothers etc.), an especially powerful form of travelling that brings you bodily into world of dreams, or portal stones are needed to get to other worlds, i'm thinking some pretty massive force or some revolutionary new idea was needed to get out of the pettern. Seeing as they were a group linked (or is that conjecture?), the power seems likely. But still too easy an explanation....

 

[Attira Kell]

For you second paragraph I'll need time to think on it. I recall reading somewhere that they were taken outside the pattern - can't think of the source though. It seems to me that a person must be able to exist outside the pattern as Lanfear and co were sealed with the DO when the Bore was patched. Unless the very fact it was only a patch means that the DO was never fully outside the pattern during the patched-years. I guess it depends on the view you take as to what the Pattern represents. Yes it is the threads of souls, but in what pattern? If it is a pattern of choices then it should be possible for such a thread to exist, if you think of the pattern as an Einstein space-time concept then perhaps not.

As an aside: It's nice to have someone start debating a different point of the theory

I believe you are remembering when Lanfear was talking with Rand about alternate dimensions when they were using the portal stones.  She said something to the effect that great users/experimenters of the One Power would create bubbles outside the pattern in order to conduct their most dangerous experiments. So if something happened, no one else suffered the consequences.  

[Attira Kell]

As I have stated though the fact that they can both have the same end means that when they do have the same ends they are in the same category i.e. Compulsion with a capital C.

No. They are still different things. Compulsion is one thing, torture is another. Intent is not important. A flamethrower doesn't stop being a flamethrower because you use it to make toast. Compulsion is not torture and torture is not Compulsion. They are different weaves, that may be used for the same ends.

The flamethrower (object) is still a flamethrower (object) but with the intent to make toast it can come under the Toasters category. After-all what is the end of all the objects in the category toaster but to make toast? Similarly the Torture (weave) is still a Torture (weave) but with the intent to compel someone it comes under Compulsion (category). After-all what is the point of all the weaves under Compulsion (category) but to compel someone?

Lambada I have to disagree with you on this one.  I have enjoyed this banter of semantics back and forth between you two, but I have to disagree.  A flamethrower is a flamethrower no matter what you say. You can not argue semantics here.  It does not fall into the toaster category.  Can you use it to create toast? Yes.  Does that makes it a toaster? No.  You can use the exhaust of a M1A1 tank to heat your water for shaving in the field, but it does not change the nature of the tank into that of a water heater.

[Attira Kell]

Well, I finally read all the posts on this.  Wow.  My thoughts on the Bore are something along these lines.  I think it is likely that a weave similar to the one they use to create their "bubbles" outside the pattern for dangerous experiments combined with some form of gateway, whether Traveling or Skimming.  This might create the opening (gateway part) and then stays open (the bubble part). 

There is nothing that said that the bubbles outside the pattern had to be maintained once they were created.  Or maybe they knew in the Age of Legends how to have a weave draw power from the Source directly so they didn't have to maintain it. 

[SheaththeSword]

So the presence of these bubbles, outside of the pattern, but seemingly NOT in the DO prison suggest proof that not everything outside pattern is the prison, that they are in fact seperate and defined.

@ Atira Kell

Would these bubbles outside the pattern be in anyway related to stasis boxes? outside but accessible form pattern...

On a side note could you creat a bubble while skimming in that space, as it is said to be between threads, and simply step into it(could doing experiements while skimming infact be completely safe for the pattern??)? Could a stasis box that has 'drifted away' from the pattern cause congestion while skimming lol.

Though of course the fact that two openings for skimming beside each other do not show the other's 'raft' suggests skimming portals to be somehow special...

[Attira Kell]

I always though to stasis boxes as supped up versions of a Keeping ward. But I guess that they might exist in a bubble like that, some place where time doesn't pass. 

I still don't know if I agree that everything outside the pattern is the DO's prison.  Why can't the DO be one (albeit large) thread in the pattern that was isolated by the creator and then accessed by Lanfear?  The creator isolated him at creation somehow so why not like that? 

One big thread isolated by a "creator thread shield" that was breached by Lanfear?

[SheaththeSword]

well it does say that at the moment of creation the creator sealed the DO away from the pattern and time, doesn't it? And Given duality of entire series, doesn't that make creator and dark one on a par of power, but both sperate from pattern? I mean if the DO was just a thread, (even an extremely large one) he would not be seperate from time, he would be subject to it as part of the pattern (this is assuming one can seperate a thread from other thread)

Also there is the one power, the apparent opposite balance for the one power, coming from the DO as opposed to the creator. How could somehting subject to the pattern be an infinite source of power, in the same way the creator is?

(And i know it doesn't say specifically the OP comes from the creator, but it drives the wheel, which the Creator made. Doesn't come from nothing - Cr. had to make it)

[Blackhoof]

The DO is outside, but he is not everything outside.

The True Power is the source of energy that Lanfear sensed, it is the DO, i always presumed. The TP is drawn from himself, it is his energy. The OP is the horse the Creator made to push the wheel, the strange, infinite, hermaphrodite horse.